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Re: Man on Bike Killed by Garbage Truck Driver at 16th and South Van Ness

SF_Abe — Sat, 25 May 2013 18:49:26 -0000

A "high rate of speed" isn't very specific. Was he going as fast as the truck when they were mid-block? Are cyclist subject to a speed limit lower than that of motor vehicles?

Re: Man on Bike Killed by Garbage Truck Driver at 16th and South Van Ness

SF_Abe — Sat, 25 May 2013 18:41:52 -0000

The last time I moved was by bike. The bike coalition will rent you a HUGE trailer for free if you're a member. It actually held more than my friends' cars did. I'd say the hardest part about moving by bike was having to share the streets with cars (and not being able to use a parking space to unload).

Re: Man on Bike Killed by Garbage Truck Driver at 16th and South Van Ness

Peter Smith — Sat, 25 May 2013 18:18:08 -0000

yes -- if a truck is in the city, and it is physically impossible for the truck to obey traffic laws, then that truck/driver is in 'de facto' violation of the law.

to remove any uncertainty from this situation, tho, we just need to ban trucks outright.

SF already has some routes with height and weight restrictions, and a whole set of 'advisory' routes -- all we have to do to start is make the 'advisory' routes 'regulatory' -- i.e. illegal.

http://www.sfmta.com/cms/venf/...

to me, a 'reasonable' safety measure is one that starts keeping people safe from trucks.

but maybe we should focus on what kind of conclusion a casual observer might draw about the phrase "de facto" and whether or not it has any "legal import", or maybe someone will be able to figure out what "one-sided partisan prejudices" means wrt your pretextual "knee-jerky" comments.

Re: Man on Bike Killed by Garbage Truck Driver at 16th and South Van Ness

Eddie — Sat, 25 May 2013 17:09:47 -0000

Peter,

So because a truck has to make wider turns, that is "de facto" guilt? (A term that I suspect has no legal import).

And your conclusion is to ban all trucks from the city? No disrespect or nothing but do you have any idea how weak that argument sounds?

A casual observer might just conclude that you are looking for a pretext to ban vehicles from the city, without any semblance of an argument that you think might trouble the voters.

Let's focus on reasonable safety measures and not one-sided partisan prejudices. I really had hoped for some more serious, less knee-jerk comments than that.

Re: Man on Bike Killed by Garbage Truck Driver at 16th and South Van Ness

p_chazz — Sat, 25 May 2013 15:10:53 -0000

You might also have mentioned that the bicyclist was traveling at a high rate of speed, according to police reports, but that doesn't matter on Streetsblog, because here bicyclists are always in the right and drivers are always in the wrong no matter if the facts say otherwise.

Re: Maker Faire: A Model for Encouraging Car-Free Transportation to Big Events

the_greasybear — Sat, 25 May 2013 14:41:05 -0000

If a parking lot attendee told you that, at the busiest hour of the day, the lot contained 1,000 cars would you then conclude that only 1,000 cars had parked in that lot all day long?

Re: Man on Bike Killed by Garbage Truck Driver at 16th and South Van Ness

Peter Smith — Sat, 25 May 2013 12:51:50 -0000

Most of what you've said is inane, in particular the helmet and vest stuff, and well, just about all of it, but it's worthy i think to note that many trucks cannot, by definition, obey the law wrt merging on right hand turns -- which means they, when present on the streets, are de facto guilty of a crime, are very dangerous, and should be banned outright.

Trucks have no place in San Francisco (or anywhere).

Re: Man on Bike Killed by Garbage Truck Driver at 16th and South Van Ness

Eddie — Sat, 25 May 2013 11:56:31 -0000

Many here seem quick to blame the driver, or even want to prosecute him. But, while not all the facts are available yet, there do seem to be some mitigating factors here based on what we do know:

1) No helmet. It might not have saved him, but it might have done and certainly would have done no harm. It also indicates an attitude of carelessness.

2) No high-vis reflective wear. Although early in the day it would have been light at that time. But anything that increases visability shows a focus on safety. There's also no indication of any audible warning given such as a bell, horn or shout. A truck driver might not hear such sounds but, again, how could it have harmed?

3) A east-bound driver on 16th turning south onto SVN would have to look right for pedestrians crossing SVN, ahead for westbound traffic on 16th turning south onto SVN and of course left for southbound traffic already on SVN. It's asking a lot for him to also look behind especially given that all vehicles have a blind spot.

4) The victim was new to SF and so probably not familiar with city streets and traffic. Interestingly, at least two other cyclists who have been killed on SF streets in the last couple of years were also new to SF - IIRC, a German tourist and a resident of the East Bay. Coincidence? Or inexperience?

5) Even where a bike lane exists, the law says that vehicles should move right into that bike lane when making a right turn. Why? Precisely to prevent accidents like this. Effectively a vehicle should try and physically prevent a cyclist from being on the right when making a turn, for obvious reasons. But a truck can only make wide turns, thereby allowing a space to move into that dangerous location.

6) I don't know if the truck indicated a right turn but, in any event, I think most cyclists would be very wary of overtaking a vehicle on the right when that vehicle might be making a right turn. Passing on the "wrong side" is known to be risky and surely the safest curse of action in such a situation is to hold back and wait

I haven't seen anything so far indicating the driver was at fault, unless of course there is an over-riding presumption that it is always the driver's fault regardless.

Some times accidents are just accidents.

Re: Maker Faire: A Model for Encouraging Car-Free Transportation to Big Events

Stacey Poncia — Sat, 25 May 2013 09:27:54 -0000

As a neighbor in the area, traffic was still a nightmare. On day one I couldnt get out of my neighborhood. I'd like to see the event offer discounts if showing public transportation tickets/receipts. There has to be more incentives NOT to drive.

Re: Today’s Headlines

Richard_Mlynarik — Sat, 25 May 2013 00:40:58 -0000

The first rule of holes: stop digging.

Re: Maker Faire: A Model for Encouraging Car-Free Transportation to Big Events

Todd Edelman — Fri, 24 May 2013 23:45:45 -0000

OK, so if 60k came on one day (half the total attendance) and 1,000 of these came by bike, that is about 1.5% modal share for bikes. Do you have any of the other numbers? I am not impressed so far and it seems that any event - or business - on the Peninsula is going to generate mostly private car traffic.

Re: Man on Bike Killed by Garbage Truck Driver at 16th and South Van Ness

bicicletera — Fri, 24 May 2013 23:39:30 -0000

If the driver didn't follow the rules of the road, i.e. signaling and then merging right before the turn, then that is his crime. Drivers are to exercise extreme caution and follow rules that exist for a reason.

Re: Man on Bike Killed by Garbage Truck Driver at 16th and South Van Ness

Peter Smith — Fri, 24 May 2013 22:33:11 -0000

i know a lot of people, advocates included, talk a lot about being lighted well -- glowing in the daytime and nighttime -- but i don't think there's any evidence to support the notion that bikers or walkers are being killed primarily because they are not lit up like Christmas trees.

the main causes, i suspect, are illegal, dangerous and often deadly behavior by drivers: texting, talking on the phone, eating, sleeping, drunk/hi/drugged driving, speeding, running red lights and stop signs, violating the right of way, failure to signal, a million different laws being broken constantly by drivers.

http://www.mercurynews.com/cri...

in fact, i'd say, in the hundreds/thousands of reports of walker/biker injuries/deaths i've seen over the last few years, i can't even think of one that was caused either primarily by lack of lighting, or that reason even being a significant contributing factor.

if the driver is texting, for instance, they'll hit you, and possibly kill you, just like that -- regardless of how well-lit you are. the sheer number of daytime walk/bike kills confirms this -- like the San Jose boy who was killed by a truck a few days ago.

i put out a sign at the scene, "Demand protected bike lanes!" -- because most people will think, "Eh - no biggie -- i mean, it's terrible, but it's inevitable."

It is terrible, but it's not inevitable.

Re: Man on Bike Killed by Garbage Truck Driver at 16th and South Van Ness

Peter Smith — Fri, 24 May 2013 22:17:17 -0000

i've done bike moves before. it's hard work, but doable. it's not rocket science.

portland is not afraid. they've got all sorts of bike cargo-related businesses going on.
http://bikeportland.org/tag/ca...

take a deep breath. relax.

someone invented this thing called 'the wheel'. you'd be amazed at what can be moved with a few of them -- just by human power alone.

ain't u never heard of the pyramids, 'my man'?

http://www.lowtechmagazine.com...

Re: Man on Bike Killed by Garbage Truck Driver at 16th and South Van Ness

Passingtrucker — Fri, 24 May 2013 22:02:39 -0000

Cyclist (and motorcyclist) ASSUME motorist see them. Its bad enough they're small and easy to miss in drivers' field of vision, but you DON"T have the common sense to wear highly reflective safety vest like construction workers. OSHA requires them to wear a reflective vest when working in traffic, so do we need to pass laws that common sense says you should wear bright reflective safety vest ?? Motor Vehicle laws require bicycles to have lights in the evening, yet I see numerous bikes who don't comply with the law, then they cry foul when someone comes along and hits them in the evening hours. Motorist are not held liable because bicyclist didn't have the common sense to wear bright reflective safety vest AND have a tail light and head light in the evening hours. ALWAYS assume you're invisible to motorist until they make eye contact with you.

Re: Man on Bike Killed by Garbage Truck Driver at 16th and South Van Ness

Peter Smith — Fri, 24 May 2013 22:01:08 -0000

yes, bikers should not listen to music b/c that could be enjoyable for them.

drivers, otoh, should be able to do whatever they want -- especially truck drivers.

stupid argument.

everyone gets that in the current transportation system, non-drivers are extremely vulnerable for myriad reasons -- all i'm arguing for is that a simple slip-up by a biker or walker -- a momentary lapse of not being perfectly aware of all driver behavior around him/her, illegal and otherwise -- not be a 'mistake' punishable by death.

that's what today's transportation system offers -- a malignant design that heaps misery on individuals, families, society. it's totally insane. i'm not sure what level of tragedy would be required to get citizens to demand better.

Re: Man on Bike Killed by Garbage Truck Driver at 16th and South Van Ness

Peter Smith — Fri, 24 May 2013 21:51:35 -0000

buses won't exist in my brave new world, so nobody will be getting thrown under them -- obviously.

if you actually cared about the elderly and handicapped, you'd know they are the primary beneficiaries of "death by auto" today.

from what i've witnessed of mobility for handicapped people -- it's indescribably bad -- degrading -- humiliating -- unconscionable.

maybe you think that's a natural state of affairs, or is fair. i've no idea. But a society trying to be decent should not tolerate it, imo.

wrt the mobility of the elderly and handicapped, i'm certain they would much prefer to live in my world where they can actually walk or bike to the store without fear of dying.

there is a definite trend in the history of modern mankind -- demotorization in the developed nations. it's inescapable at this point -- even BRT will eventually succumb to the march of destiny -- get used to it. trucks resembling those of today are going away.

i say good riddance.

Re: Man on Bike Killed by Garbage Truck Driver at 16th and South Van Ness

Passingtrucker — Fri, 24 May 2013 21:43:41 -0000

More likely, he had passed the bicyclist earlier, then stopped at the intersection to yield the right of way to oncoming traffic and didn't notice the bicyclist had caught up and was about to pass on his blind side. A lot of these bicyclist are listening to music, so they're distracted from drivers who don't see them, or fail to realize they're on driver's blind side. If you're on a bicycle or motorcycle, you should assume you're invisible until motorist makes eye contact to acknowledge the driver see's you.

Re: Man on Bike Killed by Garbage Truck Driver at 16th and South Van Ness

gob — Fri, 24 May 2013 21:37:56 -0000

dude I agree with that...I used to live in London..and that city has barely few bike lanes here and there. they need to do something. and they already did something called congestion charge for business transportation. it helped a lot!

but still you can't ban busses and trucks..how would you move your stuff when you translocate? with a bycicle and a dolly?? how would you get your food at your favorite grocery shop next to your house? or farmers market? How would you make a construction going on? how would you transport the material for it? on your rump?

and talking about a free world from cars and combustion engines..don't you think other forms of transportation have been invented yet? but they can't be used or being sold yet...the dominion of oil is still to big to make the corporations even consider it.

especially in this nation like the rest of the world my man.

our lives and this planet are nothing compare to the power of money.

have you ever heard about the magic word "externality"?

Re: Man on Bike Killed by Garbage Truck Driver at 16th and South Van Ness

Peter Smith — Fri, 24 May 2013 21:36:19 -0000

my pov is that it is virtually impossible to make trucks, as currently constructed, safe.

check this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

take them all off the road right now/today, outfit them with wheel guards and side skirts, then maybe we can put a couple back on the road, with new restrictions, and we decide then if they're too much of a safety risk to tolerate.

my guess is that there were human societies that existed hundreds or thousands of years ago that figured out how to deal with waste/refuse without motorized transport -- if they can do it, i'm confident we can do it. especially here in the tech utopianism HQ that is the SJ Bay Area, i'm guessing we can find some folks who are up to the challenge.

if it means it helps us achieve full employment, then that's one of myriad benefits. the 1% will hate it, but that goes without saying.

there are smaller garbage trucks already:
https://www.google.com/search?...

and even smaller ones:
http://www.ominousweather.com/...

we've already seen the euro-style vans being sold for commercial and consumer purposes. Kara's Cupcakes had one of theirs at the Googleplex today (I was just passing by).

google/corporate campuses/stadiums and facilities crews and bike-rental/share companies uses all manner of NEV vehicles for lighter industrial duty all over the world. it's not a problem it all -- it just makes sense.

nothing happens overnight, either. bikes didn't disappear overnight a hundred years ago, and they won't reappear overnight today. and that's not perfect for us today, but we shouldn't think of this stuff as 'unfeasible' -- we have to work to convince folks that a much better life is possible for the 99% if we can do these things.

Re: Man on Bike Killed by Garbage Truck Driver at 16th and South Van Ness

p_chazz — Fri, 24 May 2013 21:22:53 -0000

So then the elderly and handicapped would just get thrown under the bus? I want no part of your brave new world.

Re: SF Officials, Advocates Take a Ride on BRT and Bike-Share in Mexico City

mikesonn — Fri, 24 May 2013 19:48:03 -0000

You mean to tell me that AAA, which has gotten 100% of what it has wanted for the last 70+ years, wasn't invited?! Wow, clearly there is a war on cars!!!

Re: Man on Bike Killed by Garbage Truck Driver at 16th and South Van Ness

Ryan Brady — Fri, 24 May 2013 19:41:59 -0000

http://foundsf.org/images/e/e1...

Is that not what covered wheels are? I thought it meant blocking the front of the wheel, not the sides.

Re: Man on Bike Killed by Garbage Truck Driver at 16th and South Van Ness

Ryan Brady — Fri, 24 May 2013 19:40:46 -0000

I don't know. I'd rather get rid of private vehicles before commercial ones. Commercial vehicle operators have a lot more incentive to drive safely, and presumably have more training.

With the exception of movers and delivery trucks, they also are far less likely to be double parked in a bike lane.

Also, as much as you'd like it to be feasible, I don't see bicycle garbage service or bicycle moving service working too well.

Re: SF Officials, Advocates Take a Ride on BRT and Bike-Share in Mexico City

@ddbb — Fri, 24 May 2013 19:12:04 -0000

This trip was essentially an off-site meeting of the anti-car lobby in SF paid for by (ITDP) a 501(c)3 organization with similar goals. The trip probably cost about $40,000 with the American taxpayer paying about a third of that. Nobody on the list of attendees represents business or motorists interests.